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+--- Thread: Retrofit vs Orbit vs Dealership (/showthread.php?tid=194)
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Retrofit vs Orbit vs Dealership - estorsky - 08-13-2023
Hello all,
I am considering to upgrade my Volvo with a few options.
However, I am still connected to local dealership and I would not like to get my vehicle banned by Volvo.
Suppose I add something( 360 cam, BLIS, park pilot assist, whatever).
Obviously this is some hardware that needs to be added + software to be loaded (let's imagine I can do everything with Orbit).
The question is - when I want to go to a dealership, and I revert all the software back to factory settings via Orbit, what should happen with the hardware?
My guess is that there would be a lot of faults and error messages if some hardware is present while software is not.
So the dealer might see it and understand my Volvo is not quite factory set.
Does anybody have such an experience?
RE: Retrofit vs Orbit vs Dealership - marinalin85 - 08-13-2023
I retrofitted back up camera and before enabling with OrBit I didn't had any faults for it
It might be different with BLISS or something but I don't think so
RE: Retrofit vs Orbit vs Dealership - IMAY2023 - 08-16-2023
(08-13-2023, 02:34 PM)estorsky Wrote: Hello all,
I am considering to upgrade my Volvo with a few options.
However, I am still connected to local dealership and I would not like to get my vehicle banned by Volvo.
Suppose I add something( 360 cam, BLIS, park pilot assist, whatever).
Obviously this is some hardware that needs to be added + software to be loaded (let's imagine I can do everything with Orbit).
The question is - when I want to go to a dealership, and I revert all the software back to factory settings via Orbit, what should happen with the hardware?
My guess is that there would be a lot of faults and error messages if some hardware is present while software is not.
So the dealer might see it and understand my Volvo is not quite factory set.
Does anybody have such an experience?
Volvo dealership will not install any accessory to any model unless the accessory you want is listed officially in here according to model & year or in the VIDA according to VIN. For example: Park Assist Pilot (requires 12 sensors) is not listed as an accessory in the web but you can find it in VIDA according to your VIN. From VIDA you can gather the part numbers, installation instruction and purchase the software yourself in you are in US. Every software you purchase by yourself via VIDA becomes official and gets coded into your VIN in VOLVO database. FYI, I installed the pilot assist (replaced the Hydraulic unit) & park pilot assist (added 4 more sensors) to my 2019 s60 Momentum and purchase the software via VIDA myself. On the other hand, I installed front FOG lights and wired them to CEM myself while I was adding the park assist pilot. but there is no way to enable the front fog lights and cornering lights function via VIDA. You toggle on/off for trouble shooting via CEM controls and that's it. Because FOG lights for 2019 S60 are not listed as possible addon accessory in Volvo Database. In this case I had to use Orbit to enable them. As far as I know, 360cam, BLIS is not listed as an accessory on any model / year, so you cannot actually install them from VIDA same as the dealer ship. They see exactly what you see on VIDA. the only difference is the purchase price of the software in VIDA. what you are charged and what a dealer is charged by VOLVO. I hope this answers your question.
RE: Retrofit vs Orbit vs Dealership - Power6 - 08-19-2023
I think I know what you are asking...for retrofitting equipment, the situation you are in to keep your car "compatible" with VIDA is specific to each "mod" you can do. 360 cam, vs BLIS, vs B&W stereo swap, they are all a litle different as they involve different features. I am trying to think how to boil this complexity down is a simple way...let me see if I can do it...
You have 2 main concerns of "compatibility" with VIDA:
Config compatibility - Will car get blocked?
Software compatibility - Can software be loaded/updated?
And you have a few different types of "mods" you can do:
Add equipment (not modules) - example: LED lights/units for "high level illumination"
Add equipment and module - example: add interior motion sensor (IMS) for security system
Swap a different module - example: upgrade stereo to B&W(swap amplifier, AUD module)
I'll try to take each one and the considerations, so this can be a general guide, before you get into specifics of a particular "mod":
First things to know: VIDA does not block cars based on modified modules: replacing modules with different serial numbers, HW parts, added new modules etc. You are only dealing with compatibility issues, the car will only be blocked for variant/build config mods, as of the writing of this post. And as usual you have no current concerns about getting blocked with OrBit use, either. There is also not too much concern about DTCs, i.e. trouble codes when the car config is returned to original but the hardware mods are such that the car generates codes ebcause of it. There doesn't seem to be anything in VIDA that is limited when a vehicle has certain codes or such. I haven't found any, but I am not a heavy user of it.
Add equipment (not modules) - For the most part, these type of mods are pretty safe for compatibility. If you are not changing any modules, then to VIDA, the car looks exactly the same, unmodified, VIDA only deals with the modules/ECUs. I added the LED units for "high-level illumination" to my car. These were the lower door puddle lights, door handle "amblent" LED units, door pocket LED lights etc. Then I configured the illumination level with OrBit, and those lights work. When I "Restore to OEM" those LEDs don't function. I can connect the car to VIDA, take it to the dealer, etc with no issues.
Add equipment and module - As you move up the ladder in mods, things are more dependent on the specific change you make. The whole car is proprietary and we are making changes, sometimes outside how Volvo might build a car. Adding a new module to the car, you have added a module to the network that is now going to respond to VIDA when it performs a readut of the car. In general I have found that VIDA will either ignore that module when it comes to software, or it will sometimes helpfully add a module reload to the software list. You don't have to be concerned about "blocking" with OrBit. The main concern will be can you order and install a "Total Upgrade" (TU) in VIDA. There is a process that Volvo cloud goes through to generate a TU for the car, based on the laest readout. It is looking at the car and the current software and packaging the needed updates to the latest versions. It is here you could potentially have a problem if VIDA sees a module that needs updating, but the original car config (the variant codes really) do not match. Adding the WAM and 360 cam could be an issue. If VIDA finds the WAM, it needs a software update, it's added to the TU, then when you try to order that TU, VIDA may give you an error "incompatible hardware". What I've worked out is this can happen because the car has a WAM but the variant codes define the car as not having the 360 cam, VIDA sees that as a compatibility problem.
If you are able to, the best way to deal with this potential problem, is to unplug the added module, or disable it by pulling the fuse, or some way to make VIDA not see it. You may not NEED to do that, but it's a way to deal with a module that is going to cause issues for you. When I added the IMS to my car, VIDA generated a TU and updated the software on it. It doesn't seem to have a problem with that one, but other modules being present could be an issue.
Swap a different module - This type of mod is very similar to the above. When you swap to a different module from the original, the thing that affects VIDA is whether that module is "software compatible". The key to this is "diagnostic part number" (you can read this with OrBit for any module). Two examples will show what I mean. I swapped the B&W amp into my car. It's the AUD module. It has a different diagnostic part number than the H/K AUD module originally in my car. It uses totally different software. I can plug my car into VIDA, run diagnostics etc with the B&W AUD installed. If I try to order a TU though, or an AUD reload, I will get an error of incompatible HW (car variant is H/K stereo but the B&W module is present). I can unplug the amp, and plug in the original amp, which then makes the car compatible to VIDA and I can order and install a TU or an AUD reload. Some other modules, like the HCMs I installed in the car to go with the "bending" headlights swap, those are not a problem. I needed HCMs that have a different HW part number that support the bending lights, but those HCMs have the SAME diagnostic part number as my original HCMs. They use the same software. I can order and install a TU or an HCM reload on the car with the bending lights swap, as is.
Conclusions:
This is becoming less of a problem as cars age, the frequency of software udpates slows down as volvo abandons active development on older models. There is already few udpates for my 2019 S60, the only real concern I see is ability to replace and reload modules for repair, which I think is not too hard to work around for something that doesn't need to be done often.
Note: Much of this was made more of a PITA after the "blocking" crack down. Previous to June '22, Volvo allowed the car variant config to update their system, changing the "official" config of the car. In the scenario above, I was able to change my variant config to the B&W stereo, read the car out in VIDA, and then perform a TU and AUD reload with VIDA, with the correct B&W software. Volvo's system has the capability to package the compatible software for a car, but the issue with "blocking" makes that moot, as you aren't allowed to make the car properly compatible with VIDA. It would be a lot simpler if they just went back to allowing that, VIDA still detected and prevented incompatible software, but had no problem where software was compatible with the car modified from original if it was done properly, but such is life ;-) It's a long term goal...don't ask this is a long ways away!, But I'd like OrBit to take over being able to manage software updates and reloads.
RE: Retrofit vs Orbit vs Dealership - IMAY2023 - 08-21-2023
(08-19-2023, 07:17 PM)Power6 Wrote: I think I know what you are asking...for retrofitting equipment, the situation you are in to keep your car "compatible" with VIDA is specific to each "mod" you can do. 360 cam, vs BLIS, vs B&W stereo swap, they are all a litle different as they involve different features. I am trying to think how to boil this complexity down is a simple way...let me see if I can do it...
You have 2 main concerns of "compatibility" with VIDA:
Config compatibility - Will car get blocked?
Software compatibility - Can software be loaded/updated?
And you have a few different types of "mods" you can do:
Add equipment (not modules) - example: LED lights/units for "high level illumination"
Add equipment and module - example: add interior motion sensor (IMS) for security system
Swap a different module - example: upgrade stereo to B&W(swap amplifier, AUD module)
I'll try to take each one and the considerations, so this can be a general guide, before you get into specifics of a particular "mod":
First things to know: VIDA does not block cars based on modified modules: replacing modules with different serial numbers, HW parts, added new modules etc. You are only dealing with compatibility issues, the car will only be blocked for variant/build config mods, as of the writing of this post. And as usual you have no current concerns about getting blocked with OrBit use, either. There is also not too much concern about DTCs, i.e. trouble codes when the car config is returned to original but the hardware mods are such that the car generates codes ebcause of it. There doesn't seem to be anything in VIDA that is limited when a vehicle has certain codes or such. I haven't found any, but I am not a heavy user of it.
Add equipment (not modules) - For the most part, these type of mods are pretty safe for compatibility. If you are not changing any modules, then to VIDA, the car looks exactly the same, unmodified, VIDA only deals with the modules/ECUs. I added the LED units for "high-level illumination" to my car. These were the lower door puddle lights, door handle "amblent" LED units, door pocket LED lights etc. Then I configured the illumination level with OrBit, and those lights work. When I "Restore to OEM" those LEDs don't function. I can connect the car to VIDA, take it to the dealer, etc with no issues.
Add equipment and module - As you move up the ladder in mods, things are more dependent on the specific change you make. The whole car is proprietary and we are making changes, sometimes outside how Volvo might build a car. Adding a new module to the car, you have added a module to the network that is now going to respond to VIDA when it performs a readut of the car. In general I have found that VIDA will either ignore that module when it comes to software, or it will sometimes helpfully add a module reload to the software list. You don't have to be concerned about "blocking" with OrBit. The main concern will be can you order and install a "Total Upgrade" (TU) in VIDA. There is a process that Volvo cloud goes through to generate a TU for the car, based on the laest readout. It is looking at the car and the current software and packaging the needed updates to the latest versions. It is here you could potentially have a problem if VIDA sees a module that needs updating, but the original car config (the variant codes really) do not match. Adding the WAM and 360 cam could be an issue. If VIDA finds the WAM, it needs a software update, it's added to the TU, then when you try to order that TU, VIDA may give you an error "incompatible hardware". What I've worked out is this can happen because the car has a WAM but the variant codes define the car as not having the 360 cam, VIDA sees that as a compatibility problem.
If you are able to, the best way to deal with this potential problem, is to unplug the added module, or disable it by pulling the fuse, or some way to make VIDA not see it. You may not NEED to do that, but it's a way to deal with a module that is going to cause issues for you. When I added the IMS to my car, VIDA generated a TU and updated the software on it. It doesn't seem to have a problem with that one, but other modules being present could be an issue.
Swap a different module - This type of mod is very similar to the above. When you swap to a different module from the original, the thing that affects VIDA is whether that module is "software compatible". The key to this is "diagnostic part number" (you can read this with OrBit for any module). Two examples will show what I mean. I swapped the B&W amp into my car. It's the AUD module. It has a different diagnostic part number than the H/K AUD module originally in my car. It uses totally different software. I can plug my car into VIDA, run diagnostics etc with the B&W AUD installed. If I try to order a TU though, or an AUD reload, I will get an error of incompatible HW (car variant is H/K stereo but the B&W module is present). I can unplug the amp, and plug in the original amp, which then makes the car compatible to VIDA and I can order and install a TU or an AUD reload. Some other modules, like the HCMs I installed in the car to go with the "bending" headlights swap, those are not a problem. I needed HCMs that have a different HW part number that support the bending lights, but those HCMs have the SAME diagnostic part number as my original HCMs. They use the same software. I can order and install a TU or an HCM reload on the car with the bending lights swap, as is.
Conclusions:
This is becoming less of a problem as cars age, the frequency of software udpates slows down as volvo abandons active development on older models. There is already few udpates for my 2019 S60, the only real concern I see is ability to replace and reload modules for repair, which I think is not too hard to work around for something that doesn't need to be done often.
Note: Much of this was made more of a PITA after the "blocking" crack down. Previous to June '22, Volvo allowed the car variant config to update their system, changing the "official" config of the car. In the scenario above, I was able to change my variant config to the B&W stereo, read the car out in VIDA, and then perform a TU and AUD reload with VIDA, with the correct B&W software. Volvo's system has the capability to package the compatible software for a car, but the issue with "blocking" makes that moot, as you aren't allowed to make the car properly compatible with VIDA. It would be a lot simpler if they just went back to allowing that, VIDA still detected and prevented incompatible software, but had no problem where software was compatible with the car modified from original if it was done properly, but such is life ;-) It's a long term goal...don't ask this is a long ways away!, But I'd like OrBit to take over being able to manage software updates and reloads.
Hi,
Regarding your comment below,
" In the scenario above, I was able to change my variant config to the B&W stereo, read the car out in VIDA, and then perform a TU and AUD reload with VIDA, with the correct B&W software."
I have VOLVO 2019 S60 Momentum, I also replaced the HK amplifier with the BW ones and replaced the center HK speaker on dash with the BW speaker too. I changed the config to Premium Audio in Orbit and everything just works fine. My question is, Can I go ahead and reload the AUD software from VIDA or do I need to do something prior to that.
Thanks in advance.
RE: Retrofit vs Orbit vs Dealership - Power6 - 08-22-2023
You can't do that any more ;-) Since Volvo implemented "blocking" it's not possible to connect the car to VIDA with modified variant config ("Premium audio") and then reload the B&W amp. Your car will be blocked from ordering software due to the modified variant codes.
The amplifier you installed, if it's a used one, should already be loaded with software anyway. If you DO want to reload it for whatever reason, send me an email, I have the B&W amp software for the S60, you can flash to the AUD with OrBit.
The B&W amp in the S60, is shared with the XC60, I beleive both use the same software loaded on the amp. Probably tuning for the specific interior XC60/S60/V60 is adjusted by reading the config.
RE: Retrofit vs Orbit vs Dealership - IMAY2023 - 08-23-2023
(08-22-2023, 02:55 AM)Power6 Wrote: You can't do that any more ;-) Since Volvo implemented "blocking" it's not possible to connect the car to VIDA with modified variant config ("Premium audio") and then reload the B&W amp. Your car will be blocked from ordering software due to the modified variant codes.
The amplifier you installed, if it's a used one, should already be loaded with software anyway. If you DO want to reload it for whatever reason, send me an email, I have the B&W amp software for the S60, you can flash to the AUD with OrBit.
The B&W amp in the S60, is shared with the XC60, I beleive both use the same software loaded on the amp. Probably tuning for the specific interior XC60/S60/V60 is adjusted by reading the config.
Thank you, much appreciated.
Yes, mine is used one. I purchased it from ebay seller and I don't recall if it's out from XC60 or XC90 but it works just fine without any issues or codes.
I guess, I will need to put back the HK before going to service. Do you recommend reverting all the changes back to original in Orbit too or installing original amplifier would be enough?
RE: Retrofit vs Orbit vs Dealership - Sodertalje - 08-25-2023
(08-22-2023, 02:55 AM)Power6 Wrote: If you DO want to reload it for whatever reason, send me an email, I have the B&W amp software for the S60, you can flash to the AUD with OrBit.
The B&W amp in the S60, is shared with the XC60, I beleive both use the same software loaded on the amp. Probably tuning for the specific interior XC60/S60/V60 is adjusted by reading the config.
Does that give us the Jazz Club preset next to the Gothenburg Concert Hall?
RE: Retrofit vs Orbit vs Dealership - estorsky - 08-27-2023
Thanks, @Power6. I am not sure I fully understand the process, but the overall algorithm looks reasonable.
So, if I end up installing a module (BLIS or 360CAM) and then want to revert to factory settings I can revert to factory settings with OrBit, but do not touch the hardware. Most likely this will result into fault codes, which may or may not be seen by VIDA (we don't know). If VIDA sees these fault codes, it may report this to swedes. Another problem here would be TU when VIDA might try to update a module that should not be there, and this will show up as a modified car. To avoid that, I need to black out the modules (like BLIS) when connecting VIDA. One of the ways to switch off the modules might be just pulling out a fuse.
Does my rephrasing sound right to you?
RE: Retrofit vs Orbit vs Dealership - Power6 - 09-11-2023
Yes, that sounds right! If you Restore OEM, you will be fine at the dealer and never get blocked. Then the next concern is software compatibility , if you can unplug, de-power the added ECUs somehow, that is probably the best to avoid issues. Since we don't know all what VIDA does, we can't be sure if any specific module will or won't be a problem, so it may just be down to experiences and sharing knowledge here among us. Really Total Upgrade is the concern, there is a process that VIDA does to put together the package, and if that has a problem due to the hardware in the car, it could not show in VIDA. Individual module reloads of the correct modules in the car, do not seem to be affected by th state of any other modules, i.e. if you swapped in the SODL/SODR units, it does not prevent you from reloading an HCM or other module for example. It's nice to have the "Total Upgrade" but that is honestly a very narrow issue, at least for the Sensus cars that are aging.
In that spirit, it seems VIDA does not like my IMS (interior motion sensor) I added to the car! VIDA sees it, and shows the "IMS remove" application, and won't show a Total Upgrade for my car. I didn't test unplugging it yet to see if VIDA is OK with that. The US cars are a bit special here though, the IMS is not standard and for some reason, no alarm upgrade accessories are available in the US (no IMS or tilt-sensor BBS upgrade).